Bucknell – Game 30 (PL's 17th)

Forum Forum Lehigh Sports Lehigh Men’s Basketball Bucknell – Game 30 (PL's 17th)

This topic contains 44 replies, has 12 voices, and was last updated by  TMH 6 years, 8 months ago.

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  • #13761
    Bison137
    Bison137
    Participant

    QUOTE: Also, I think that the athleticism of this current team is either 1) exaggerated somewhat or 2) not translating into production. If I remember correctly, basically all of the team previews talked about the great athleticism, getting out in transition, dunks and alley-oops. In reality, that has not happened. Gabe and Holden themselves last year combined for way more dunks than the whole of this team. . . . Lastly, the toughness term has been thrown around a lot, and could not be more accurate. This team just does not have nearly enough of it, and I think pafan is spot on.

    – – –

    One thing that puzzled me about last year’s team (with Knutson, Holden, Goldsborough, and Baltimore) and also this year’s team (Kempton, Chuku, Goldsborough, and all the athletes) is the poor rebounding. Just looking at the players, I’d expect much better numbers. In PL games this year, they rank 8th (out of 10) in both offensive and defensive rebounding. Last year they ranked 7th (out of 8) on the defensive boards and 5th offensively.

    They are being outrebounded this year by teams like Colgate and Army. I’d expect better in this category. Is it toughness, inexperience, something else?

    #13762
    RichH
    RichH
    Participant

    137
    Not sure we know . My own guess is that the big coaching is not getting thru. For that matter no one is positionung for O rebounds. Why? Boxing out occurs infrequentingly. For whatever reason it has not improved .

    #13763

    lehigh90
    Participant

    I was going to post this yesterday, but thought people might go bananas, but since my post yesterday generated some nice comments back, I will post this now. This is my follow-up to my UNKNOWN post.

    First, I think we have all vastly overrated the talent on this team. I look around the returning squad and see only 1 player who I think is a 1st or 2nd team PL Player. That player is TK, who I think will become a dominant big man, if not next year, then in his final 2 seasons. After him, I see a lot of average players, who have deficiencies that outweigh their strengths. In follow-up, I do agree that some are slightly KNOWN quantities at this point, but I don’t really love what I see in them, or their upside. Bottom line is in a halfcourt set, we have really nobody who can get you a bucket. Where do you go late in a close game? Why do you think we lose late so often? There are no stars, or upcoming stars on this roster, in my opinion.

    Looking back over the years, I think after 8-10 games, you know if you have something special. If you look at the last great trio GK/HG/CM, we knew 10 games in they were special. Maybe a little later for HG, but he was showing signs very early that he was a player. When you get those talents, the coach finds big minutes for those guys, and can work around their talents to find a set rotation. Reed has struggled all year to find that minute ratio and rotation, and I think it is primarily because he is stumped on a game by game basis of who shows up. As I said earlier, the young excuse becomes weaker after 30 college games, and I am starting to believe we have overrated the talent on this roster.

    Here are my knowns:

    TK – As stated above, I think will be a 2,000 point scorer. I penciled him in before he showed up as a 4 year starter, and he has performed at the level I expected. With more experience, he will be the best big man in the league for probably 3 seasons. I think he is 18/10 over the rest of his Lehigh career. Is he ever going to be a power player, no. But, he has enough finesse, post moves and jump shot to be one of Lehigh’s best when he finishes, and probably their best 5.

    CS- We know he is a really solid contributing guard at either the point and the 2. Is he a star, no, but a really nice player who may need to really score next season. Glue player who plays really hard with a high intensity and IQ. As a coach, you love guys like this.

    JG- Nice hustle, first big off the bench. Or perhaps, a 5th starter and last offensive option in the starting 5. Solid rebounder and defender, and shot changer, but very limited in offensive sets. Really no post up game, or not a consistent throw it to the low box and score game.

    DC – Can’t play. Will never contribute in a meaningful way. Showed nothing as a freshman, and after injury no more or less. What does he do well? Slash to hoop, no. Jump shot, no. On the ball defender, no.

    CR/GP – As stated earlier, we know they are walk-ons, which generally means they won’t contribute. I would agree on that front. I would like to see CR get a little more run, based on his purported athleticism and his scoring prowess in high school. But, I don’t see practices, so I have to assume he is behind the others that play. I just got a feeling he was a baller, but can’t tell.

    SC – He is a perimeter shooter, plain and simple. A 3 point specialist who would be effective to play against zone. He cannot create his own shot off the dribble, and is a liability on the defensive end. He can be instant offense, but needs stuff run for him to be effective, either off screens or as a kick out shooter when the post gets doubled. Every team needs a guy like this, but not as a starter.

    Now we move to unknowns, and what I think we may know:

    AP- A lot of people on this board like him. I’m not really sure why. What does he do well … shoot the ball from distance. Fine, that skill is a dime a dozen in college. Can he really handle the ball? No. Can he put it on the floor and get to the rim? No. Is he a lockdown perimeter defender? No. Is he an energy guy who plays really hard at both ends? No. Is he an above average rebounder from the guard position? No. I have no idea why he plays so much. It has been discussed that he came from a top high school program and that is fine, but I don’t think it means much. I guess the argument there is he is a heady player because he got solid HS coaching, but he makes a ton of poor decisions and it has cost them a couple of games this year. He is what he is, which is a stand still perimeter shooter, not much different than SC, and probably not as good a shooter. I don’t see him projecting to a top level PL player. He plays passive and soft.

    JC – Probably my biggest disappointment on the roster. We saw the body, the frame, the length, the skill set, etc, we were teased by having to wait a year, and he has been pretty average or below. Unbelievably, he basically just wants to sit outside and shoot 3’s. It was what he did in high school and apparently it is what he wants to do for Lehigh. At his size, he is a non-factor in the paint. He is not a good rebounder. He can’t be an offensive rebounder as he is usually 20 feet from the basket. He doesn’t block shots, and he is not a great inside defender. He is on my All-Showroom Team, looks great in the showroom, average when he gets out on the road. Or, he reminds me of the NFL Combine workout star, who doesn’t show it on the field. I thought this guy was going to be a flat out PL stud. And, all he has shown is that he is consistently inconsistent. And, he is no longer a young player, based on his age.

    MS – Now he is a true unknown in my book. He has quicks, and can push tempo a bit, nice handle. I question his jump shot. It looks like he does not have a repeatable motion, or stroke, it is kind of a heave, herky jerky, not great rotation on the ball, etc. And, he is very small and slight and I don’t see him as a great finisher at the rim in the future. I would say MM has been a very solid finisher in his Lehigh career, but he is much thicker and has a nice array of moves at the rim. Maybe MS has those, not sure. He could be your starting PG next year, or, he could be your 4th choice PG next year behind the 2 incoming frosh, and CS. Would have liked to see more from his this season.

    SW – Again, a disappointment so far. I think we all hoped he was going to be your jack of all trades, HG replacement. Guy who could score, rebound, defend, score at rim and from outside, with a jumper out to 3 point range. Guy who could pass it as well. So far, he is none of those things. Again, what does he do really well, what is his baseline skill? Not a good shooter, not a real slasher/finisher at the rim, not a great defender, not a great ferocious rebounder. He does play unselfishly, willing passer. Does he project as a star, not at this point in my book. To me, he is John Adams early in his career, before he learned to shoot the 3.

    So, that is how I see current roster. It is a negative look, I agree, but that is what I have seen so far. Hope it gets a lot better, but I see little star power.

    Finally, on the JRG front. Some folks seem high on him. What I know is he can jump, really well. But, he is only 6’4″. To me that means he is going to be a perimeter player. Possible he could play in post, but you need rare skill at that size to be a real impact player (see Daren Queenan, who was also a 6’4″ leaper). He is going to have to make a jump shot to be effective. In highlights, I have seen mostly dunks on weaker high school level talent, in a non-talent rich environment. He was basically a non-factor at Lipscomb, which is a really bad team in a really bad conference. He had impact in one game. One stat I do like is he shoots a lot of foul shots, which means he can get to the line. That is a prerequisite skill to be a big time scorer. That is positive, hopefully he is an effective slasher from the wing who can finish, because that is really what this team needs. All that being said, I think he is going to be average player. If he was a top PL level talent, I don’t think he would be here. He would have been now a 2 year starter at Lipscomb.

    Other transfer, unknown. Incoming freshmen, we will see. But, I see no star power on this team. It is an average group on an average team.

    #13765
    Bison137
    Bison137
    Participant

    QUOTE:

    A few items i wanna jump in on here. First, the AD situation – here’s the quote from the LU Atletics site:

    What are your postgraduate plans?
    AD: I deferred my forensic advisory job offer at PricewaterhouseCoopers because I plan on utilizing my fifth year of eligibility for basketball. I am unsure as to where I will end up next year, mainly because I have not put my name out there just yet. After next year, I will start my career out at PwC in New York City, which is the largest accounting firm in the world.

    I’m struggling with this. If he wants to come back and play next year, are we really not accommodating him? I guess I understand the scholarship problem – but when did he express interest in returning? Could something not have been worked out? I dunno – but I feel like we should have. And could he not return non-schollie? Maybe that’s not an option on his side, and if so I guess that’s just how it is. But what are his options? He can’t play D1 anywhere else next year, right? The 2 semester rule we’ve heard about here?

    – – – – –

    1. As a graduate, he can go to any number of graduate schools and play immediately as long as LU signs off on it, which I am sure they would.

    2. Yes he could return and pay his own way, but I doubt he wants to do that. To return, he would have to show an academic reason and get approved by LU’s President and the PL, but that would be fairly automatic.

    3. If LU has already committed to the max number of scholarships for next year, then it is a problem. The only normal options would be: (a) rescind the scholarship of a current player or “convince” one to transfer; or (b) wait and hope someone transfers.

    4. One remote possibility is something that I know happened at least once on the women’s side in similar circumstances. A team petitioned the NCAA to allow them to give out an extra scholarship for a year, with the quid pro quo being that the following year they had to have one scholarship below the limit. I doubt Reed would want to do that however.

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 8 months ago by Bison137 Bison137.
    #13767

    pafan11
    Participant

    Lehigh90,

    To address your comment about CR I without question agree and would love to see him get a shot. I am not about to say I have any credentials that could compare with the LU coaching staff and I am sure they have reasons for who plays and how much. However, I have watched this team all year and saw CR play multiple games in HS against some very good teams. If my life depended on winning a game and I had to choose one LU player he might be my second choice behind TK. Will do anything to win and is tough as nails. Maybe doesn’t shoot it as well in practice or look as fluid, or have the pedigree, but did score over 1500 pts against quad A opponents on a team that gave him very little help. It is also my understanding he was offered D1 football scholarships so must be fairly athletic.

    #13768

    toddcudd
    Participant

    They are being outrebounded this year by teams like Colgate and Army. I’d expect better in this category. Is it toughness, inexperience, something else?

    I think there are several factors involved, certainly including the youth/inexperience stuff. But the first three, to my mind are scheme, scheme, and scheme. Particularly on the offensive end. Our offense does not put guys in position for ORs. Some time ago, I went so far as to post stills from the game stream of 4 players heading back on D while a shot was in the air. We’re just not gonna get many ORs above the 3pt line.
    On defense, it’s not as clear to me, I guess. Some combination of toughness and athleticism I s’pose.

    #13770
    StablerBum
    StablerBum
    Participant

    Looking back over the years, I think after 8-10 games, you know if you have something special. If you look at the last great trio GK/HG/CM, we knew 10 games in they were special.

    ’90, I think you raise a lot of really good points, many of which I fully agree with. I do however think you need to remember the differences in the situations that the CJ class and this class came into. CJ and Co joined a team with two All-PL players including the preseason PL POY (Marquis Hall) that also had Michael Ojo and a few other solid PL upperclassmen.

    I think a more apt comparison would be the following year when CJ, Gabe, and Holden as sophomores led a team that finished 16-15 and 6-8 in the league. You could still tell those three (especially Gabe and CJ) would be great, but the results were not really there. I’m not trying to say these freshman will be as successful as that class, just that no two situations are the same. I remain pretty high on the talent level in these freshman, and think they will compete for PL championships as juniors and seniors. I think next year we are in for another year hovering around .500 overall and in the league.

    #13771
    StablerBum
    StablerBum
    Participant

    On the rebounding issue, I think it is partly recruiting, partly philosophy, and mostly effort/toughness. None of the guys on the current roster save for Baltimore were known as big time rebounders coming in as recruits. In Baltimore’s case, his rebounding has been good but the other parts of his game/life (offense, foul trouble, academics) have kept him off the court. I don’t think Reed is a coach that values rebounding highly based on his recruiting, and how he gives out minutes. He really likes his teams to get out in transition on offense, so usually the wings sprint the floor and don’t help a ton on the glass. CJ was an exception to this as he was a great instinctive rebounder and could turn those D boards into 1 man fast breaks. MM also does a decent job on the glass. Tim is never going to be an elite rebounder because he isn’t explosive enough to rebound outside of his zone. Justin and Jesse, I don’t know. Those are the guys that should be dominating the boards but there just doesn’t seem to be consistency of effort on their part.

    On JRG, my hope is that he is Donald Brown (Bucknell) 2.0. Also, while his high school competition was weak he did get an offer from Murray State in the middle of one of their excellent periods as a top mid major, his athleticism is undeniable, and he left Lipscomb because he thought Lehigh would be a better situation for himself as a player.

    #13772

    lfnadmin
    Keymaster

    AP- A lot of people on this board like him. I’m not really sure why. What does he do well … shoot the ball from distance. Fine, that skill is a dime a dozen in college. Can he really handle the ball? No. Can he put it on the floor and get to the rim? No. Is he a lockdown perimeter defender? No. Is he an energy guy who plays really hard at both ends? No. Is he an above average rebounder from the guard position? No. I have no idea why he plays so much. It has been discussed that he came from a top high school program and that is fine, but I don’t think it means much. I guess the argument there is he is a heady player because he got solid HS coaching, but he makes a ton of poor decisions and it has cost them a couple of games this year. He is what he is, which is a stand still perimeter shooter, not much different than SC, and probably not as good a shooter. I don’t see him projecting to a top level PL player. He plays passive and soft.

    He’s a FRESHMAN who has improved in many of these areas during the course of the season, especially on that “putting it on the floor and getting it to the rim” aspect.

    I don’t even know the kid but I feel you’re giving him an awfully bad rap for not being Mr. Everything out of the chute. I feel he’s made young-player type mistakes (no different than TK) and I see a lot of upside.

    By all means let’s talk next year if he hasn’t progressed, but again, I see upside where you don’t seem to see any.

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 8 months ago by  lfnadmin.
    #13774
    van
    van
    Participant

    Have to agree with Todd on the offensive scheme, in fact I often wonder if we have a scheme.

    Let’s not forget that this team is very young and showed signs of being very good at times. All those first year players showed make a big step forward by next year.

    #13775
    RichH
    RichH
    Participant

    Pages of post mortem and season not done. Frustration. Yup,in spades. Do believe the agony of this yr will serve us well next. Dont forget transfers have been practicing. The competition for minutes will be fierce next yr. We will be better, perhaps not champ yet but not so many close losses.
    Doc needs to find consistent shooters and a perimeter D. Rebounding would be nice but dont think its on this roster.

    #13776
    van
    van
    Participant

    Disagree with Rich on one point, size and athleticism to rebound is there, coach em up!

    #13777
    RichH
    RichH
    Participant

    Dont disagree van. Hard to rebound if you’re already going up court. todd has a good point. D rebounding perhaps coaching may help. The bodies are there.

    #13779

    TMH
    Participant

    So much to get caught up on.

    Lehigh90,
    Although I think your assessment is spot on for most of the players, I’m not sure I agree that one can assess one’s play after 10 games or even a full season. It was certainly evident with CJ and GK but HG averaged 3.1 points, 1.8 rebounds and had 7 assists for the season in his freshman year. He grew into his role.
    Rebounding.
    I attended about 9-10 games this season and my impression has not wavered since Day 1. The best rebounder on the team this season was MM. He didn’t average the most boards but he had the best technique and for a guy barely 6-0 averaged about 4/game. Prior to this season, CJ was by far our best rebounder over the last 3 seasons. He knew where the ball was coming down, went there, left his feet and caught it at its highest point. He was only 6-3. The technique from our frontcourt is awful.With some exception, most rebounds occur because the ball comes to them. We absolutely, positively need a big man coach,preferably one who has been there, done that and will go to war with them in practice. No one on our staff IMO is suited for that role. They should spend entire practices with a lid on the basket, battling for every loose ball. Anticipation, technique (boxing out), establishing position and most of all attitude are key.
    We lack consistency in all those areas. IMO, TK has the desire but lacks the tools. Someone needs to work on his vertical and his hands. There are drills for both. At 6-10, he should be jumping center. JC has all the tools but not a consistent desire.Again IMO,I may consider switching positions with TK. JC’s best game was when TK got in early foul trouble and JC was forced to play inside. He needs to have his role established and that is to terrorize in the paint. JG has the tools and the desire but needs to play smarter and with more consistency. JRG may (or may not) be a wild card. One does not have to be overly tall to rebound the basketball. CJ and MM are examples. If he has the proper mindset and the coaches utilize him correctly, he certainly has the hops to be a game changer. Only time will tell.

    #13780

    TMH
    Participant

    One last point in this long discussion on AP. Offensively, he is entering uncharted territory. I’ve said it many times before, even in HS, he only averaged aboyt 3 attempts/game from inside the 3. Discount the fast breaks and we are closer to 2 attempts/game. I give him credit for trying to expand his game but frankly he’s not there yet. He is only a freshman though. He has never been a big rebounder nor assist maker in HS either. We should have known all this going in. My bigger problem is defense. I had assumed that he was an in your face defender. Whether by design or not, that is not his style this year. He likes to play on the fringes of the paint, giving his man some awfully good looks at the basket from beyond the arc. He has very quick hands and will get you some steals but so far he is not the lock down defender I had expected.
    There is going to be a long of competition at the wing next year. I would not be surprised to see CS start at the point to bring some stability to this very important position. This wil allow AP, SW, JRG, SC,BA and TJ to all battle it out at the wings based on the desired skill sets. That should be an interesting battle. MS and KR will battle it out for relief minutes for CS.

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